interview by Paul H. Birch
The Godfather
Interview by Paul H. Birch
War of the Gods is part of Wonder
Womans 50th anniversary celebrations.
What is the story line about?
War of the Gods basically deals with Circe
the Sorceress' masterplan to fulfill the revenge
of the Hecate, one of the moon goddesses that
has been betrayed by an Olympian god during
the pre-history. The War of the Gods basic
premise is that different pantheons of gods are
called to wreak havoc on the Earth, although
the gods themselves aren't really trying to
destroy the Earth, just reclaiming what they
consider theirs in the first place.
What their plan is is to re-create the world
according to their own myths, of course many
of these contradict each other so you have the
conflict between the various gods and with the
superheroes who are caught in the middle of all
this.
Coinciding with this is Wonder Woman's
50th anniversary and because of the nature of
the cross-over and the fact that she does have
her own book , she has stories crossing over
with this. She sometimes plays a lesser active
role in some of the issue, so that the other
characters, especially those like Aqua Man who
haven't had their own series, can get a better,
fuller role to play.
Also in addition to the Creek gods and how
they relate to Wonder Woman, is also how they
relate to Captain Marvel. I try to deal with why
the Z in Shazam stands for Zeus, if the Zeus
according to the revised Wonder Woman
legend, has had no physical involvement in
modem humanity up until the time Diana came
to Patriachs world. It's not really a redefinition
of Captain Marvel as opposed to a redefinition
of Shazam. For example, who is the old wizard
that gave him his powers and why should a
Roman deity, a demi-god and one Judaic leader
all get together to create a superhero, which is
what Captain Marvel ended up being ?
I always wondered why all these legends
created this character ? Why did they manifest
all of their energies into creating this superhero
in a red and yellow costume ? The one thing I
want to keep in Captain Marvel despite all that,
is that sense of innocence. He is not just
Superman in a different suit and he doesn't use
mythology so much that he becomes Wonder
Woman in drag !
Other characters who will be popping in
that will have major roles include everyone
from The Demon, to a totally obscure character
that DC bought from Charlton Comics and
that's the Son of Vulcan because of his
mythological tie-in. He also provides me with
the opportunity to use the character totally
freely, without worrying about upsetting too
much of his past history because very few
people remember his past history !
In the case of Wonder Woman, the one
thing we set out to do is to finish off the next
stage of her development . She has gone from
being a messianic figure that is trying to save
the world from Aries, to being a teacher, an
ambassador getting the world of man for the
arrival of the Amazons and the recognition of
Themyscira as an existing nation and now I
want to assimilate her into the superhero
community.
Basically I want to put her back into DC's
mainstream again which will also finish off
my run on Wonder Women, because War of the
Gods, and issue 62 of Wonder Women which
directly follows War of the Gods will be my last
Wonder Woman series.
You're just doing the layouts on War of
the Gods I understand ?
Yes, I'm doing the layouts on the original
boards, but not quite the way that Keith Giffin
does on all the stories that he works on. It's
closer to the sort of work I did on Superman
before Kerry Gammill came in. When I worked
with Brett Breeding I did the layouts which
were very loose except for some of the main
characters, who I might do a little more
definition on the faces in order to get the exact
emotion I want. But this way the body
language, the ideas for the actual scene and
scenery are mind and then in this case Cynthia
Martin's
How is the work coming along with
Cynthia Martin? Is it looking the way you
expected it to ?
Looking at Cynthia's work the one thing I
notice that's different from mine is a softer
touch. My characters tend to be more
grandiose, with more macho appeal if you like
as far as the men are concerned and hers have a
much more elegant look to them. She doesn't
go as dark as I do, some of that could be
because her knowledge of the character is
more limited. She has a very graceful style and
that's one of the reasons why I'm doing layouts
as opposed to doing a script and having her
finish it off.
Her elegance, combined with 'my power
has a nice unique feel. It's different enough that
I know it's not mine, yet my strength is still
there because of how much work went into the
layouts. There's an opening sequence with the
New Olympus that I actually had to full pencil,
because there was no way I could say, draw a
circle and say: "That's where the new Olympus
is going to be" and expect anything of my
imagination to be in there. So those type of
pages and certain characters are mine and the
rest are Cynthias. She's also using a ton of
reference, many of them from the books I've
done. So some stuff of hers looks more like
mine than others and some stuff looks totally
Cynthia Martins.
I see you've worked with a number of
women in the recent years, most notably on
the second Wonder Woman annual. Do you
find it easier to work with women than men ?
I don't find any essential difference
between working with either one of them. The
second Wonder Woman annual was a gimmick
annual. I wanted to work with female artists on
a book that featured a prominent female
superhero, but because Wonder Woman only
had one title, the annual provided us with an
outlet for different female artists, to work on
without committing their time as they all had
regular work to do. Female artists being
readers as well, don't often particularly care to
read superhero books about the next kind of
incarnation of the macho bare-chested hero, or
superhero with a gun kind of comic book.
They come into it with a fresh approach which
is a little different. Most of the time if you deal
with a male artist and you mention a certain
character, he will probably know who that
character is and probably have kept up with
him as they may have been fans of that
particular genre as they were growing up. Many
of the women have not, some have, but most
have not, and that provides the difference why
working with men gives a different outlook.
Because of that, dealing with Cynthia on the
regular series, I have to be a little more precise
in what I want. For example, if a character is
going to perform a certain act, sometimes you
have describe how that character can perform
that action because there are certain
characteristics that are inherent in that character
that they may not be aware of and you have to
not take it for granted that they know this.
Beyond that, they provide their own
insights, and sometimes it's interesting to note
that I might describe a character as being
handsome and how a woman would interpret
that. Because the men have a certain ideas of
what handsome means but to a woman it's a
totally different idea. So sometimes I get some
interesting feedback, some totally different
points of view.
How about the writing side. Their point
view as being women, does that cause any
confusion?
The only trouble I've ever had in the
writing and that's got better with more
experience is the storytelling aspect. In
working with Jill Compton for a while I went to
a full script because we had a little trouble with
her storytelling. Again it's not something that's
she's grown up with. Standard fare, there are
certain ways of following through a fight
scene which they might find to be incredibly
boring, I don't blame them. That's the only
time, I've had any problems in the writing
aspect. If I don't totally put the stuff down in
the original plot or the script, then they may
misinterpret what I want.
To be completely frank, I have had that
trouble with one or two male artists. I think
every writer has that trouble with an artist at
one point or another. Just in the case of Jill in
particular, who worked on her own layouts, it
was getting used to emphasising the correct
things in a story, making sure that the
characters are going to have dialogue and to
provide space for that dialogue and to provide
different angles so that people aren't just
sitting there and letting the words cruise over
their heads. Those were the kind of problems
that had to be worked out and whether it's
because they're women, which I seriously
doubt or because they're new which could
very well be a reason. Those are the only major
things that I've had to deal with but it's got
better with time.
You're no longer under exclusive
contract DC Will you be still working for
them?
Oh yes, my retirement from Wonder
Woman is a natural thing. I told them
sometime ago that I was going to retire after
my fifth year on the series.
I've done all I can or that I can think of
anyway and I would like to go on to other
projects. The one thing that I will not be doing
for either Marvel or DC is a regular series.
Writing for someone else is not as satisfying as
writing for myself, so I don't know what I will
do afterwards. I loved working for DC and I
love working for Marvel right now, but what I
will be doing next really depends on how I feel
after of the Gods at DC and The Infinity
Guantlet at Marvel, are over and done with. I'll
probably take about six months off and work as
an inker for a while so that I don't have to put
my creative juices through such a tasking
burden again for a while. That way I don't have
to worry about how the story is going to be
designedd as it's already in front of me, I don't
have to worry how the story progresses, that's
already done for me. I can just treat drawing
mechanically for a while at least until I
recharge my batteries and figure out what I
want to do next.
The one thing that DC have going for them
and in my decision to work for them in the
future, is Karen Berger whom I have enjoyed
working with immensely as an editor. She is
the best editor I have ever worked with and has
a great grasp of what makes a comic work. She
doesn't tie it down to a series of
preconceptions, she likes creators to have a
little more free rein than most. A lot of what
Wonder Woman is now is due to Karen Berger.
She's just had a baby, I hope that she decides to
stay working on a full-time basis as I definitely
want to work with her again.
Are you working on both Infinity
Gauntlet and War of the Gods at the same
time ?
Yes, in fact I've just finished drawing two
pages for Gauntlet this morning and I have to
work on some layouts for Cynthia on War of
the Gods this afternoon.
It's a very nerve racking thing to do, I will
never do such a thing again , it was a real case
of bad timing. When I went freelance last year,
I suddenly forgot what the word NO meant, so
I just started taking on any and all assignments,
covers here, one-shots there, everything just
piled up. All the time I had and I did have a
good head start on The Infinity Gauntlet and
War of the Gods, I pretty much ate up. So now
I'm working double- time to maintain the
schedule on both books.
This period if nothing else has taught me
my lesson, which is why I if I volunteer for any
other project, I won't take on anything else
which is more than two months long if I have
anything to say about it. If nothing else it will
be financially rewarding and sheer coincidence
that it happened to have god-beings in both
series, I have had to draw two versions of Zeus
because of doing these cross-over series.
When I make my decisions for next year, I
will be able to afford the luxury of time to think
hopefully from the money that will be
incurred from these projects.
You've just said there were two versions
of Zeus for instance. Do you ever worry you
might start pencilling in the wrong
characters from the wrong company ?
Maybe that's why it's a good thing I'm
doing just layouts on War of the Gods. The one
thing I worry about by working on both books,
is that both of them will have my storytelling
and so become repetitious. There are many
similarlities between Jim Starlins's story on
The Infinity Gauntlet and mine for War of the
Gods. So much so that I have to make sure as
an artist on both books that I don't repeat
clichés. With the Earth in danger of being
destroyed in both books it's pretty hard not to
fall into some clichés about that, you have
earthquakes, floods, lightning, you're pretty
much caught in a limited scenario that you can
play in.
War of the Gods really deals with a lot
more mythological aspects of a god war in case
of Infinity Gauntlet, Jim has pretty much
written out the gods in issue two, after that
there's no more similarity, but up until then the
similarity was getting so comparatively close
that I was starting to worry that it was going to
look that I was doing the same book for both
companies, even though I knew Jim had been
planning the Thanes storyline for quite a while.
The first synopsis for War of the Gods was
handed in in January 1990 and it hasn't
changed all that much since then but it's one of
those things of parallel thinking. Jim just
happened to have to come up with an idea,
that's similar, but thankfully he is doing
basically a superhero cosmic story and I'm
doing a superhero mythology story.
Most people when they are asked to
draw crowd scenes, they seem to go for the
easy way out, but you seem to thrive on
group situations. When you get halfway
through something like that, do you ever
throw your hands up in despair ?
There are many pages that I consider to be
my Frankenstein, creating this beast that now
will not die and that I sometimes regret ,
particularly if they are of my own doing as
opposed to someone else asking me. For
example I'11 go "Oh, lets do a big crowd scene"
and I'll put all these characters in there then
realise that the sequence goes on for a couple of
pages and you're stuck drawing all those
things, over and over again.
I did an issue of Teen Titan years ago, the
first issue of the Baxter series where writer
Mary Wolfman describes this limbo area. We
both talked about it and I even layed it out first
with the character Raven walking across this
stone bridge and then when I finished the
pencilling, I changed my. mind and I decided to
be more dramatic and draw all these twisted
bodies, all these souls and it made for a great
shot and then of course the Frankenstein
syndrome occurred and I had to draw these
scenes for three more pages. You know rock is
a hell of a lot easier to draw , so I tend to do that,
but genuinely love to draw.
Maybe it's because I work alone all the time
that I like the idea of doing the inter-relationship of characters with each other.
Whatever the reason, I sincerely love to draw
the characters. The biggest example of how I
can get carried away is the cover of number
five of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Mary, upon my
wife’s request, asked me to do a simple cover
with only about two or three of the characters
heads floating around and Earth exploding. That
cover ended up with two merging Earths and
ninety six heads on the cover ! It's become part
of my self so much, that I am uncomfortable
doing it any other way. When I do a page that
has very little on it, that's an impact page for me
as opposed to other artists who if they put a lot
of detail or if they have a lot of characters on the
page, then that's their impact page. People get
used to my crowd scenes so that when I do
something that is just an explosion or a
character standing in the middle of a desert,
that has impact !
I understand your also doing a classic
illustrated Julius Caesar. That will have a
lot of characters as well I take it ?
I am supposed to be doing a Classics
Illustrated, I'm assuming I still am, but I've
heard so many different rumours that I'm not
sure. As far as I know I'm still doing it. In my
using a lot of characters, I didn't want any
person who stabbed Julius Caesar to be an
anonymous character. So that with any small
piece of the most minor of the conspirators, I
made sure had some emphasis in the art work,
that the character is introduced and that an
individual face is drawn for that character.
I made sure that when the daggers are
drawn and thrust into Caesar, the sequence is
totally silent, I did it basically all in one page.
All the stabbings ate done by people who you
can only see their faces, they have no little
name tags on them and that's the type of
approach I went for and again I enjoyed it .
I also happen to have a great love for plays,
I love dialogue. I have done a bit of community
theatre, I act but I don't get asked to direct but
then again I direct people on paper all the time.
I like the interplay, maybe it's my great love of
hearing good dialogue going back and forth
among characters. I hear the characters talking
in my head when I'm drawing.
In Julius Caesar, other than looking
forward to being able to use all the Roman
architechture after doing the Creeks for so long
in Wonder Woman it's nice to get to graduate to
Rome.Ienjoy getting to do all these individual
characters, that being on the stage you have all
these different actors playing different roles,
they have different faces, different bodies. So in
comics it can't just be the same face done with
variations done on different figures. That's the
part I enjoyed the most. During my days on the
Titans it's that I tried to develop in my style
within the limits of my own abilities, trying to
give characters a definite and different facial
and body look, particularly if they're going to
be regular characters something that is going to
make them identifiable.
Titans started to get exceedingly bad when I
was drawing the same face for Kid Flash as I
was drawing for Robin and even I was starting
to get confused. So I decided to really start
working on developing faces and started basing
faces on, if not on actual photos, then actual
impressions I have of real people. Many of the
cast members of Wonder Woman are real
people with characters of their own. In doing
Julius Caesar I tried to use as much actual
reference, statues, any different portraiture that
I could find. It was a lot tougher obviously for
other characters but I wanted to use some real
basis in my head without using models to
create the cast of characters.
When we did a readers poll in Fantazia,
your name came up as the most requested
for interviews. You have a lot of fans over in
Britain. Do you hope to make it over for
convention in the future ?
Oh I would love to. I haven't been to
England since 1977. The people I have met
there as I remember they were very friendly.
I would love to go back there if I get invited
to an English convention that doesn't clash
with the work within my schedule 1 then I
would love to go back there again. I haven’t
been there in a long time.
FANTAZIA #14 (UK) (Jul 1991) 
ZACK SNYDER'S JUSTICE LEAGUE (18 Mar 2021)
BLACK WIDOW (2021)
