From Vu Below is the transcript to "Titanic Minds" from the special feature of TEEN TITANS: THE JUDAS CONTRACT (Bluray/DVD).
>>> 1 00:00:22,481 --> 00:00:26,981 I know you love being haunted by visions of the past. 2 00:00:27,277 --> 00:00:29,737 I actually found these, going through my photos. 3 00:00:30,364 --> 00:00:34,701 Remember when we first started Titans, one of our first conventions together. 4 00:00:34,868 --> 00:00:36,744 - We were like babies. - I know, I know. 5 00:00:36,912 --> 00:00:38,496 - I'm only 12 now. - I know. 6 00:00:38,664 --> 00:00:42,167 And they're going to change our diapers now, just as then. Um... 7 00:00:43,126 --> 00:00:44,127 Remember this one? 8 00:00:45,504 --> 00:00:47,464 That was from the Heroes' Convention in Charlotte. 9 00:00:47,631 --> 00:00:49,132 I think it might have been the very first one. 10 00:00:49,299 --> 00:00:51,718 Yeah, we were both guests at the first one. 11 00:00:51,885 --> 00:00:53,094 GEORGE PEREZ: Look at the hair. MARV WOLFMAN: Oh, my God. 12 00:00:53,262 --> 00:00:55,305 <i>I have a lot of hair and it's dark.</i> 13 00:00:55,472 --> 00:00:57,265 Hey, at least you still have the wisps of snow. 14 00:00:57,432 --> 00:00:59,934 The plows came and took mine, you know. 15 00:01:00,185 --> 00:01:01,186 Oh, wow. 16 00:01:01,353 --> 00:01:05,853 Yeah, but I was trying to look for some photos from our Titans days. 17 00:01:06,149 --> 00:01:07,525 I think this one actually... 18 00:01:07,693 --> 00:01:09,319 I think we had gotten off Titan, 19 00:01:09,486 --> 00:01:11,988 and we had just gone on <i>Crisis</i> at that point, judging by... 20 00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:14,448 - Yeah, based on the hair. - Right. 21 00:01:14,616 --> 00:01:16,993 We're judging everything by our follicles. 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:18,369 - Yeah. - I love that. 23 00:01:19,079 --> 00:01:20,622 <i>WOLFMAN: I love getting together with George</i> 24 00:01:20,914 --> 00:01:24,792 and it's great because we just fall right back into the same patterns 25 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:27,420 that we had when we were doing the comic. 26 00:01:27,754 --> 00:01:32,133 I always look forward to any chance I can have to see Marv. 27 00:01:32,301 --> 00:01:34,052 It's bit of a change, 28 00:01:35,762 --> 00:01:38,014 uh, having a partner who used to live within 29 00:01:38,181 --> 00:01:42,018 walking distance of, now being entire country's width apart, so, 30 00:01:42,185 --> 00:01:45,688 any chance I get to spend time with Marv is always a chance I treasure. 31 00:01:46,023 --> 00:01:49,484 It's just fun talking to somebody who has gone through 32 00:01:49,651 --> 00:01:52,654 the same stuff I did on all those books. 33 00:01:52,821 --> 00:01:53,863 -(LAUGHS) - I remember 34 00:01:54,031 --> 00:01:56,450 when you first asked me about doing Titans, 35 00:01:56,617 --> 00:01:58,368 you know, it's like a... 36 00:01:58,535 --> 00:02:00,203 I didn't think the book would last six issues. 37 00:02:01,830 --> 00:02:05,208 <i>WOLFMAN: Nothing at DC had lasted, at that point, more than six issues.</i> 38 00:02:05,375 --> 00:02:08,878 Any new book had been canceled within the first six. 39 00:02:09,129 --> 00:02:10,463 So I think we had... 40 00:02:10,631 --> 00:02:13,759 We thought that we would do the book exactly the way we wanted it. 41 00:02:13,925 --> 00:02:15,426 It would be canceled at six. 42 00:02:15,594 --> 00:02:17,387 Then we'd go on to other assignments. 43 00:02:17,554 --> 00:02:21,724 And for me, 16 years later, it proved to be true. 44 00:02:21,892 --> 00:02:25,520 Well, the thing is, obviously, I was very flattered that you asked. 45 00:02:25,687 --> 00:02:27,397 What made you think of me? 46 00:02:27,564 --> 00:02:29,816 I remember, at that point I was still working at Marvel. 47 00:02:29,983 --> 00:02:31,234 - Yeah. - And you had gone... 48 00:02:31,401 --> 00:02:34,904 And I believe that you and Len Wein had been discussing The Titans book, 49 00:02:36,073 --> 00:02:37,199 um, before I was involved. 50 00:02:37,366 --> 00:02:38,784 Yeah, you were still at Marvel. 51 00:02:38,950 --> 00:02:42,870 I was working on Superman and a couple of other titles 52 00:02:43,038 --> 00:02:45,081 and was putting together The <i>Titans</i> 53 00:02:45,248 --> 00:02:47,250 and wanted to work with you. 54 00:02:47,626 --> 00:02:52,126 I was back up in Marvel for something and I saw George Perez in the hallway, 55 00:02:52,464 --> 00:02:54,674 and we started talking about what we were doing 56 00:02:54,841 --> 00:02:57,176 and I mentioned Teen Titans, and then suddenly asked, 57 00:02:57,344 --> 00:03:00,847 "Would you be interested in drawing it?" 58 00:03:01,264 --> 00:03:04,558 And George said he'd be interested in doing some work at DC. 59 00:03:04,726 --> 00:03:08,146 I think he was more interested in <i>Justice</i> League than Teen Titans. 60 00:03:08,313 --> 00:03:12,442 I took on the Teen Titans, only with the provision 61 00:03:12,609 --> 00:03:16,237 <i>that</i> I would <i>get</i> at <i>least one</i> issue <i>of the Justice League of America,</i> 62 00:03:16,405 --> 00:03:18,448 which is the book I really wanted to draw at that time. 63 00:03:18,615 --> 00:03:20,533 That I wanted to be able to do one if the artist at that time 64 00:03:20,701 --> 00:03:22,452 was ever gonna take a vacation. 65 00:03:23,578 --> 00:03:26,289 And if they gave me that then, as a favor to Marv, 66 00:03:26,456 --> 00:03:27,957 I would do this book, Teen Titans. 67 00:03:28,125 --> 00:03:29,584 Yeah, it was pure serendipity. 68 00:03:29,793 --> 00:03:31,878 We had done a couple of jobs together. 69 00:03:32,379 --> 00:03:35,006 <i>PEREZ: The first time I met Marv Wolf man, he was my editor.</i> 70 00:03:35,173 --> 00:03:37,175 I was working on the black and white comics 71 00:03:37,342 --> 00:03:39,427 over at Marvel Comics, at the time. 72 00:03:39,594 --> 00:03:43,931 He did the Gulliver of Mars stories, and it wasn't very good. 73 00:03:44,099 --> 00:03:46,309 Marv was one of my harshest critics. I didn't care for Marv. 74 00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:48,186 But I remember that when you were, 75 00:03:48,353 --> 00:03:50,772 uh, since I knew you were an art teacher at one point, 76 00:03:50,939 --> 00:03:53,858 um, that when you criticized my work, 77 00:03:54,025 --> 00:03:55,276 you were criticizing my baby. 78 00:03:55,444 --> 00:03:58,447 So, of course I was very, very defensive and protective. 79 00:03:58,613 --> 00:04:00,990 But I know that with every bit of criticism, 80 00:04:01,158 --> 00:04:02,826 I wanted to prove you wrong. 81 00:04:03,034 --> 00:04:05,578 To prove you wrong, I ended up proving you right. 82 00:04:05,746 --> 00:04:09,499 'Cause I had to address what my weak spots were 83 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:11,668 that I couldn't see, but an outsider would. 84 00:04:11,877 --> 00:04:15,714 I'm a big believer in challenging the people, 85 00:04:17,048 --> 00:04:20,051 uh, that you just don't tell people, 86 00:04:20,218 --> 00:04:23,721 "Everything's good. You're great. You're fine. Keep at it." 87 00:04:25,724 --> 00:04:29,853 Uh, you're not gonna get better if you don't attack what you're doing wrong. 88 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:33,940 You can teach art, you could teach perspective, you could teach... 89 00:04:34,107 --> 00:04:36,692 A couple of the things, you can't teach storytelling, 90 00:04:36,860 --> 00:04:39,320 and the one thing that you had from day one 91 00:04:39,488 --> 00:04:42,073 was clear, perfect storytelling. 92 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,451 Understanding how characters move within the panel, 93 00:04:45,619 --> 00:04:47,287 and where the camera was put. 94 00:04:47,704 --> 00:04:51,207 The sheer desire to draw comics... 95 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:52,876 Nothing could stop me. 96 00:04:53,043 --> 00:04:55,295 When people ask, you know, without being an artist, and you go, 97 00:04:55,462 --> 00:04:57,881 "You're an artist when you can't imagine yourself not being an artist." 98 00:04:58,089 --> 00:04:59,965 - Exactly. - For me, it's always been instinctive. 99 00:05:00,133 --> 00:05:03,177 Telling a story was just something that I was... As you said, it can't be taught. 100 00:05:03,345 --> 00:05:06,723 You had that from day one, before the rest of it came together. 101 00:05:06,890 --> 00:05:10,184 Uh, I had a similar experience 102 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,271 where I had my storytelling correct. 103 00:05:13,438 --> 00:05:15,231 I didn't have my dialog worked out. 104 00:05:15,398 --> 00:05:19,898 I didn't know how to do it, and I wasn't getting a lot of work in the early days. 105 00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:23,990 And one day, Gerry Conway, actually, said to me, 106 00:05:24,157 --> 00:05:27,660 "You're not getting work because your characters aren't real." 107 00:05:27,828 --> 00:05:29,621 - Mmm-hmm. - And I was... 108 00:05:29,788 --> 00:05:33,500 I learned that, and I spent a year 109 00:05:33,667 --> 00:05:35,251 just learning how to write characters. 110 00:05:35,418 --> 00:05:38,295 Analyzing everything I read that I really liked. 111 00:05:38,463 --> 00:05:41,966 And then came back, and that's when I started on Tomb of Dracula. 112 00:05:42,175 --> 00:05:46,675 Which is the book that made my reputation, that led to the other stuff. 113 00:05:46,972 --> 00:05:51,101 It's amazing actually, how very few photos there are of us during that time. 114 00:05:51,268 --> 00:05:55,272 I don't think... We certainly never thought of it as anything special. 115 00:05:55,438 --> 00:05:57,398 We were doing what we liked. 116 00:05:57,566 --> 00:05:58,900 We got together to do-- 117 00:05:59,067 --> 00:06:01,944 The fans obviously though it was special. They are the ones that took the photos. 118 00:06:02,153 --> 00:06:03,737 We were pretty casual with it. 119 00:06:03,947 --> 00:06:06,282 George and I both lived in Flushing, 120 00:06:06,449 --> 00:06:09,243 uh,aboutfive, six blocks from each other. 121 00:06:09,494 --> 00:06:11,913 Because of the proximity of where we lived, 122 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,334 and particularly during the formative years of The Titans, 123 00:06:17,335 --> 00:06:21,835 was a great advantage, 'cause then, you're not a hollow voice on the telephone. 124 00:06:22,716 --> 00:06:25,802 We'd start working out most of our stories at a diner. 125 00:06:26,136 --> 00:06:27,637 - That was-- - Hillside diner. 126 00:06:27,804 --> 00:06:29,305 - That's right. - It was next to a movie theater. 127 00:06:29,472 --> 00:06:32,433 It was a standard diner, nothing special about it. 128 00:06:32,601 --> 00:06:35,520 We'd sit down and we'd start talking about all sorts of stuff. 129 00:06:35,687 --> 00:06:40,187 How we are doing, how our day has been, if there's anything interesting going on. 130 00:06:40,609 --> 00:06:44,487 Slowly you would find yourself talking about the story. 131 00:06:44,654 --> 00:06:47,531 We had no time limit, it took as long as it took. 132 00:06:47,699 --> 00:06:50,660 Living near each other, I think, gave us a great, you know, 133 00:06:50,827 --> 00:06:55,327 feeling, like, you and I, we're like brothers coming up. 134 00:06:56,041 --> 00:06:59,544 Yeah, it took all of our strengths to work that way. 135 00:06:59,753 --> 00:07:03,256 - And there were no negatives. - I know. 136 00:07:03,632 --> 00:07:07,093 I'd have about a page or so, typed out, of just my thoughts, 137 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:11,430 of who the villain, the story concept. 138 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,226 Not how we were gonna tell the story, but the idea of the story. 139 00:07:15,477 --> 00:07:17,937 He'd come in, ready to figure out how to take those ideas 140 00:07:18,104 --> 00:07:21,107 and make them a visual, as opposed to writing. 141 00:07:21,274 --> 00:07:23,442 Wanna show you something. 142 00:07:23,610 --> 00:07:26,738 Uh, this is the original page, you had a copy, 143 00:07:26,905 --> 00:07:28,865 I gave you a copy when I did it, 144 00:07:29,366 --> 00:07:33,411 of my original thinking of who the Titans would be 145 00:07:33,578 --> 00:07:36,205 and what we'd start to do. 146 00:07:36,414 --> 00:07:39,458 Um, including coming up with Titans Tower, 147 00:07:39,626 --> 00:07:41,836 which was the double "T" shape. 148 00:07:42,003 --> 00:07:43,462 <i>The inside one with the--</i> 149 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:45,506 <i>PEREZ: Right, with the windows folded on the interior.</i> 150 00:07:46,049 --> 00:07:49,218 <i>WOLFMAN: The feeling was, Superman had the Fortress of Solitude,</i> 151 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:51,179 Batman had the Batcave, 152 00:07:51,346 --> 00:07:54,390 Green Arrow had the Arrowcave, which was the Batcave minus the bats. 153 00:07:54,557 --> 00:07:55,558 - Mmm-hmm. - Um... 154 00:07:55,934 --> 00:08:00,271 The Titans should have something that was unique, architecturally, for them. 155 00:08:00,522 --> 00:08:03,900 <i>And the Double "T" just said building, you know.</i> 156 00:08:04,067 --> 00:08:08,488 This was also some of the early characters, uh, the names of characters, 157 00:08:08,738 --> 00:08:11,240 <i>I lowered Starfire's name a little bit,</i> 158 00:08:11,908 --> 00:08:14,911 <i>uh, because I knew there'd be another character in there.</i> 159 00:08:15,078 --> 00:08:16,746 <i>And finally picked on Raven.</i> 160 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,042 In my original notes on Raven, I wrote, "She should be black." 161 00:08:21,251 --> 00:08:23,962 But then I went, I don't like that concept, 162 00:08:24,129 --> 00:08:26,422 I don't like characters being called by their racial names 163 00:08:26,589 --> 00:08:29,925 because you don't see... You never see white Superman, as a name. 164 00:08:30,135 --> 00:08:32,762 - Right. - You never say, white Green Lantern. 165 00:08:32,929 --> 00:08:35,431 - Even White Tiger was Hispanic. - Yeah. Uh... 166 00:08:35,598 --> 00:08:37,933 So, Cyborg did not say race, 167 00:08:38,101 --> 00:08:39,602 therefore he could be anything. 168 00:08:39,769 --> 00:08:43,981 Why would a character call themselves something that just highlights their race, 169 00:08:44,149 --> 00:08:45,608 -because, that, to me, is fake. - Mmm-hmm. 170 00:08:45,775 --> 00:08:49,278 That's saying, "Congratulate us, we're doing something here." 171 00:08:49,446 --> 00:08:52,157 You should be doing that without congratulating yourself over doing it. 172 00:08:52,323 --> 00:08:56,452 You're doing it because there should be all these people there. Um... 173 00:08:56,703 --> 00:09:00,206 It was just fun, digging this up again, after all the years, 174 00:09:00,373 --> 00:09:04,873 and seeing the early thinking, before it was all approved, 175 00:09:05,128 --> 00:09:07,839 before it was all locked down. 176 00:09:08,131 --> 00:09:10,007 There were two items that were changed 177 00:09:10,175 --> 00:09:13,052 from the original concept art of the new characters. 178 00:09:13,344 --> 00:09:17,056 One was I originally... I did put a belt on Raven, and we removed that... 179 00:09:17,265 --> 00:09:18,641 Now she has a belt again. 180 00:09:18,808 --> 00:09:21,477 -(CHUCKLES) - In the new version of the costume. 181 00:09:22,187 --> 00:09:26,687 Joe Orlando, over at DC, when he saw the sketch of Starfire, 182 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:29,527 -he said, "Make her hair a little longer." - Yeah. 183 00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:31,487 And it does create a totally different look for her 184 00:09:31,654 --> 00:09:33,489 with the billowing mane of hair that she has 185 00:09:33,656 --> 00:09:34,990 all the way down to the back of her legs. 186 00:09:35,158 --> 00:09:38,661 When working together, particularly when you're dealing with two artistic types, 187 00:09:39,037 --> 00:09:41,622 there's always a temptation of the ego getting in the way 188 00:09:41,790 --> 00:09:45,251 that the artist wants to represent his work as purely as possible, 189 00:09:45,418 --> 00:09:48,712 the writer wants his words and his ideas as pure as possible, 190 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,550 but one of the unique, uh, situations of working with someone 191 00:09:52,717 --> 00:09:56,220 as generous and as professional as Marv Wolf man was... 192 00:09:57,097 --> 00:10:01,017 The idea, the notion, that the story, the finished product 193 00:10:01,184 --> 00:10:04,395 was the most important aspect of everything. 194 00:10:04,562 --> 00:10:06,105 It was more important than either one of us. 195 00:10:06,272 --> 00:10:09,775 I may come up with a sequence, a very strong story concept, 196 00:10:10,527 --> 00:10:13,530 and George may say, "Why don't we do it this way 197 00:10:13,696 --> 00:10:16,865 "because that will be visually more interesting." 198 00:10:17,033 --> 00:10:19,035 Well, he gets my ideas that I want character-wise, 199 00:10:19,202 --> 00:10:20,494 it gets him to draw a great picture 200 00:10:20,662 --> 00:10:23,373 that's gonna lead the reader in. That's the way we do it. 201 00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:25,625 Sometimes we interrupt one another, 202 00:10:25,792 --> 00:10:27,919 'cause the other person has just come up with another idea, 203 00:10:28,086 --> 00:10:29,378 and then we would incorporate that. 204 00:10:29,546 --> 00:10:31,589 We do each sequence like that. 205 00:10:31,881 --> 00:10:35,301 And I was always, uh, grateful that 206 00:10:35,468 --> 00:10:39,968 you trusted me so much that after a while you allowed yourself 207 00:10:40,348 --> 00:10:43,809 to be even looser in the plot, give me all the main points 208 00:10:43,977 --> 00:10:46,896 but don't tell me how the characters behave. 209 00:10:47,063 --> 00:10:48,397 'Cause you knew that I knew them. 210 00:10:48,565 --> 00:10:51,234 Yeah, there's no reason for me to have done that, you knew the character. 211 00:10:51,401 --> 00:10:53,903 I guess, for the same reason I didn't put any liner notes in there, 212 00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:55,279 you were able to second-guess me. 213 00:10:55,446 --> 00:10:59,946 And that's why we had the co-create, co-editing, co-plotting, 214 00:11:01,411 --> 00:11:05,873 all that thing is "co" because it wasn't just... I wasn't the only writer. 215 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,625 (CHUCKLES) He was doing that as well. 216 00:11:09,127 --> 00:11:11,045 I remember when we were doing The Titans, 217 00:11:11,254 --> 00:11:14,131 -we were just trying to do a cool comic. - Yeah. 218 00:11:15,049 --> 00:11:19,428 And <i>Judas</i> Contract, uh, was a real highlight for me, 219 00:11:19,637 --> 00:11:24,137 uh, because we were doing something that no one was gonna expect. 220 00:11:25,018 --> 00:11:29,355 And I was so gratified that because... I think possibly because, 221 00:11:29,522 --> 00:11:30,648 we also didn't have the internet, 222 00:11:30,815 --> 00:11:33,359 we didn't have information funneling back and forth. 223 00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:35,277 - We were able to surprise. - Yeah. 224 00:11:35,445 --> 00:11:38,114 Today you couldn't do it, 'cause the fourth cover would be out 225 00:11:38,281 --> 00:11:39,949 before the first issue was, uh... 226 00:11:40,116 --> 00:11:42,451 Well, thankfully, I also drew that last cover... 227 00:11:43,036 --> 00:11:46,414 But it indicated she was a wolf in the fold, but it didn't indicate 228 00:11:46,581 --> 00:11:50,001 that she would remain a bad person up until the very end. 229 00:11:50,168 --> 00:11:54,630 <i>The Judas Contract is</i> talked <i>about for Terra,</i> 230 00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:58,300 but that's the introduction of Nightwing, it's the introduction of Jericho, 231 00:11:58,468 --> 00:12:00,636 and it's also the origin of Deathstroke. 232 00:12:00,803 --> 00:12:03,847 Each one of them facing important parts of their life 233 00:12:04,015 --> 00:12:05,266 that was going to change. 234 00:12:05,433 --> 00:12:07,977 And every one of the characters was affected. 235 00:12:08,144 --> 00:12:11,397 Not on a punch-out storyline, but emotionally. 236 00:12:11,606 --> 00:12:12,607 Mmm-hmm. 237 00:12:12,941 --> 00:12:17,028 And when you start dealing with emotion, stories become more about 238 00:12:18,071 --> 00:12:22,571 what the readers really feel and care about, than the action. 239 00:12:23,159 --> 00:12:25,661 You forget the action. You forget that. 240 00:12:25,828 --> 00:12:30,123 The action keeps the story from becoming too boring or something. 241 00:12:30,291 --> 00:12:34,791 But you forget every action scene because they're not that dissimilar in many ways, 242 00:12:35,296 --> 00:12:38,882 but character stuff allows you to get deeper. 243 00:12:39,050 --> 00:12:42,344 And I think that's what the readers always took with The Titans. 244 00:12:42,512 --> 00:12:47,012 A lot more personal involvement in the development of these characters, 245 00:12:48,268 --> 00:12:51,020 uh, was put upon me than ever before. 246 00:12:51,688 --> 00:12:55,274 Uh, it wasn't just interpretation, it was total definition of the character. 247 00:12:55,441 --> 00:12:59,820 And the fact that it succeeded so well was very, very inspiring. 248 00:13:00,113 --> 00:13:04,408 I remember when I... Uh, designing of Terra's face, 249 00:13:04,617 --> 00:13:06,994 I could make her... Gave her the overbite. 250 00:13:07,161 --> 00:13:09,538 Yeah, I was just about to ask about the overbite. 251 00:13:09,706 --> 00:13:12,583 Where did that come from? 'Cause I thought it was such a perfect touch. 252 00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:14,376 Well, the thing is, because of the fact that 253 00:13:14,544 --> 00:13:17,630 I had already three young women in the cast of The Titans, 254 00:13:17,797 --> 00:13:20,633 <i>I said, "I needed something that would make her distinctive,"</i> 255 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,303 <i>and just giving her the stereotypical</i> 256 00:13:24,721 --> 00:13:29,221 uh, elfin look of a young child as shown in a comic, 'cause again, 257 00:13:30,977 --> 00:13:33,145 you have Kori who didn't look like any teenager I ever met, 258 00:13:33,313 --> 00:13:36,774 teenage girl I ever met, and Raven and Donna. 259 00:13:36,941 --> 00:13:41,441 And again, it made her look that much younger and that much cuter. 260 00:13:42,030 --> 00:13:45,533 That of course, when we reveal her true nature, 261 00:13:45,992 --> 00:13:49,495 there's that visual, uh, surprise. 262 00:13:50,038 --> 00:13:52,915 <i>WOLFMAN: Yeah, and you certainly, when we revealed it, uh,</i> 263 00:13:53,082 --> 00:13:55,375 and she comes out in lingerie, 264 00:13:55,543 --> 00:13:58,420 it threw everybody for a loop. 265 00:13:58,588 --> 00:14:03,088 Oh, gosh, yes. I mean it was the harshest change I could make for her, you know. 266 00:14:04,719 --> 00:14:08,597 No parents complained, no fans complained, 267 00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:12,268 they were just so horrified that Terra was a villain. 268 00:14:13,394 --> 00:14:17,894 The fact that she was in that nightgown, 269 00:14:18,191 --> 00:14:20,818 um, was not even mentioned for years. 270 00:14:20,985 --> 00:14:24,780 Once the story came into legend, 271 00:14:24,947 --> 00:14:28,784 um, and people talked about this story as being a high point in The Titans, 272 00:14:28,951 --> 00:14:31,495 then people mentioned it, but that was years later. 273 00:14:31,662 --> 00:14:35,290 People actually thought, is she like a double agent, 274 00:14:35,458 --> 00:14:36,959 is she actually working for the Titans? 275 00:14:37,126 --> 00:14:40,170 And they always expected that she was suddenly going to turn a new leaf, 276 00:14:40,338 --> 00:14:41,630 and we always knew better. 277 00:14:41,798 --> 00:14:43,925 That's the way it always was. Uh... 278 00:14:44,092 --> 00:14:47,512 At Marvel, they would always be fighting villains who would turn into heroes. 279 00:14:47,678 --> 00:14:50,472 - Mmm-hmm. - And we were determined 280 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,642 to make the readers feel 281 00:14:52,809 --> 00:14:54,685 that that was going to happen. 282 00:14:54,894 --> 00:14:56,687 But that would never happen 283 00:14:56,854 --> 00:14:58,522 because she was a psychopath. (CHUCKLES) 284 00:14:58,689 --> 00:15:03,189 Of course, we knew upfront that, uh, Terra was gonna die. 285 00:15:03,528 --> 00:15:08,028 From the very second that Marv and I came up with the character of Terra Markov, 286 00:15:08,866 --> 00:15:12,661 we knew that she was a character who was gonna die in the end 287 00:15:12,829 --> 00:15:14,205 because she was a bad person. 288 00:15:14,372 --> 00:15:18,872 And we knew upfront, that we had to make sure we didn't change our mind. 289 00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:23,171 We did not want to fall in love with these characters, because it's so easy to. 290 00:15:23,339 --> 00:15:26,925 You created them, they're gonna reflect the things that you say and think. 291 00:15:27,093 --> 00:15:28,844 But it was vital to us not to. 292 00:15:29,512 --> 00:15:32,348 I remember, you and I knew that part of the criticism 293 00:15:32,515 --> 00:15:34,725 of bringing in a young teenage girl, 294 00:15:34,892 --> 00:15:37,227 a young teenage girl in a book called Teen Titans... 295 00:15:37,395 --> 00:15:39,063 Kind of makes sense if you're a teenage girl, 296 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:40,689 -a younger teenage girl. -(LAUGHS) 297 00:15:41,315 --> 00:15:43,525 Um, that people were gonna think that we were trying to emulate 298 00:15:43,693 --> 00:15:46,278 X-Men at the time of Kitty Pryde. 299 00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:50,741 Um, and I love it that from day one, 300 00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:53,702 we knew she was the wolf in the fold there. 301 00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:57,415 And that the biggest challenge to both of us, at that point, 302 00:15:57,582 --> 00:15:59,375 was to make the fans like her. 303 00:15:59,542 --> 00:16:01,794 Yeah, while we never lost track of the... 304 00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:04,797 (STAMMERING) Hey, everything's... 305 00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:07,299 In a good story, they can go back to the first issue 306 00:16:07,508 --> 00:16:08,800 and see that you never lied to them. 307 00:16:09,135 --> 00:16:11,470 I said, "Oh, no, no, no, this was all logic. 308 00:16:11,637 --> 00:16:12,804 "This was all set up, you know? 309 00:16:12,972 --> 00:16:16,058 "And anything that was a lie was 'cause the character herself lies, 310 00:16:16,225 --> 00:16:19,895 "'cause she's obviously not who you think she is." 311 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,274 When we killed Terra Markov, reaction was pretty strong. 312 00:16:23,441 --> 00:16:26,777 Some were genuinely surprised, and some were genuinely upset. 313 00:16:27,028 --> 00:16:28,279 Quite upset. 314 00:16:28,488 --> 00:16:32,988 The only hate mail we got was when we killed Terra. 315 00:16:33,284 --> 00:16:35,995 And it was a very well-written letter. 316 00:16:36,162 --> 00:16:38,747 I mean, they actually understood the use of semicolons. 317 00:16:38,915 --> 00:16:43,085 We did our jobs well to the point that it scared us that we did it too well 318 00:16:43,252 --> 00:16:46,755 when they took the death of a fictional character 319 00:16:47,048 --> 00:16:48,340 so seriously. (CHUCKLES) 320 00:16:49,592 --> 00:16:51,343 <i>WOLFMAN: It was a really frightening letter.</i> 321 00:16:52,803 --> 00:16:57,303 <i>And it turned out to be a 12 or 13 year old kid in Texas.</i> 322 00:16:59,185 --> 00:17:03,105 I remember one of the great moments in coming up with that storyline 323 00:17:03,272 --> 00:17:05,774 that you and me and the diner in New York. 324 00:17:05,942 --> 00:17:07,151 Oh, yeah. 325 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:09,820 Talking for anyone else to hear in the diner 326 00:17:10,071 --> 00:17:12,823 about killing off this young teenage girl. 327 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:15,701 We're just going at it. What we're gonna do, how we're gonna do it... 328 00:17:15,868 --> 00:17:18,245 And there has to be a body, we must see the body... 329 00:17:18,412 --> 00:17:20,122 Here we are talking, never once probably mentioned 330 00:17:20,289 --> 00:17:22,582 the fact that we're writing a comic book story, 331 00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:26,295 and being able to walk out of that diner in New York 332 00:17:26,462 --> 00:17:28,839 and not a single person called the cops. 333 00:17:29,006 --> 00:17:31,425 -(BOTH LAUGHING) - This is only in New York. 334 00:17:31,592 --> 00:17:33,427 I don't know if they heard it or didn't hear it. 335 00:17:33,594 --> 00:17:36,638 But if they heard it, we've just plotted the death of a 15 year old girl 336 00:17:36,806 --> 00:17:38,808 and nobody cared. (LAUGHS) 337 00:17:38,975 --> 00:17:40,810 New York, New York, it's a hell of a town. 338 00:17:41,185 --> 00:17:44,521 Well, you know, it's amazing with Deathstroke to see all this. 339 00:17:44,814 --> 00:17:49,314 I never imagined that that half mask, the half orange, half black mask, 340 00:17:49,902 --> 00:17:51,945 <i>um, would become iconic.</i> 341 00:17:52,113 --> 00:17:54,115 <i>And people have asked me,</i> 342 00:17:54,282 --> 00:17:58,661 why did I... It wasn't in the script that I decided that he only had one eye. 343 00:17:59,495 --> 00:18:01,288 Uh, having a mask that covered one of the eyes. 344 00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:04,583 And my whole thinking was, "Well, it looked visually cool, 345 00:18:04,750 --> 00:18:09,171 "and how really great an assassin he must be, 346 00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:11,798 "that he can do... That he'd have the reputation that he has 347 00:18:11,966 --> 00:18:13,842 "and have no depth perception. 348 00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:16,429 -"That he can actually do..." - And doesn't care... 349 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:19,307 Exactly. That was one of the things I enjoyed doing 350 00:18:19,473 --> 00:18:21,975 because, again, that wasn't in the original plot. 351 00:18:22,143 --> 00:18:24,436 He was just an assassin and everything else... 352 00:18:24,604 --> 00:18:28,441 Obviously I tried to come up with some kind of visual and never did I realize 353 00:18:28,608 --> 00:18:32,111 35 years later, I'd be still seeing that mask everywhere. 354 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:36,365 You know, one of the things that I find is totally amazing, that with all the 355 00:18:36,532 --> 00:18:39,117 supposedly controversial things that we put into that story... 356 00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:44,119 Um, we even had established an unmarried Nightwing 357 00:18:44,707 --> 00:18:47,334 and Kori were sexually involved. 358 00:18:48,377 --> 00:18:51,797 Um, that the only thing that we seemed to ever face was, at that point, 359 00:18:51,964 --> 00:18:55,467 DC wanting Robin back. 360 00:18:55,718 --> 00:18:58,554 Yeah, uh, what had happened was, 361 00:18:58,721 --> 00:19:02,057 because we were the editors of the book... 362 00:19:02,224 --> 00:19:03,725 And the book was a top selling book. (LAUGHS) 363 00:19:03,893 --> 00:19:08,393 Yeah, and it was the top selling book by 4 to 1 over everything else. 364 00:19:10,232 --> 00:19:12,901 Uh, they pretty much never looked at the book until it was printed, 365 00:19:13,069 --> 00:19:15,404 so DC didn't have any notes there. 366 00:19:15,571 --> 00:19:18,407 But the editor of Batman wanted Robin back. 367 00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:24,496 And he wanted to make Robin young again. 368 00:19:24,955 --> 00:19:29,455 And I fought that and finally suggested a win-win type of situation 369 00:19:30,503 --> 00:19:32,588 which is the only way you get anything done really, 370 00:19:32,755 --> 00:19:33,922 if you can come up with it, 371 00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:37,176 was, let them have Robin back but we keep Dick Grayson. 372 00:19:37,343 --> 00:19:40,846 That fit with our story. He's been growing up, he's been... 373 00:19:42,223 --> 00:19:44,183 He wanted to step out on his own. 374 00:19:44,517 --> 00:19:47,019 It was time to get him out of those short green pants. 375 00:19:47,186 --> 00:19:50,230 -(CHUCKLES) - And they loved the idea 376 00:19:50,398 --> 00:19:53,401 'cause I said, "You can make it a big contest, you can do a whole big thing 377 00:19:53,567 --> 00:19:56,945 "to promote the first new Robin in 50 years," or whatever it was 378 00:19:57,113 --> 00:19:58,948 at that particular point. 379 00:19:59,115 --> 00:20:02,159 But let us have Dick Grayson at the age he is now, 380 00:20:02,326 --> 00:20:06,621 so we're able to do two or three issues where he quits being Robin, 381 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:11,042 uh, has his meeting with Batman, 382 00:20:11,210 --> 00:20:15,047 quHs,andthen when the Titans are in trouble, 383 00:20:15,214 --> 00:20:19,714 he forms a new identity, which sort of honors Batman 384 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,764 because he calls himself Nightwing, he's in the dark... 385 00:20:24,223 --> 00:20:25,432 - Mmm-hmm. - Type of costume... 386 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:29,185 <i>But he's still the young guy, he's still the very sexy guy.</i> 387 00:20:29,353 --> 00:20:32,856 He's still the character we were creating. 388 00:20:33,274 --> 00:20:37,486 And it allowed the first teenage sidekick 389 00:20:37,653 --> 00:20:39,237 to grow into his own hero. 390 00:20:39,405 --> 00:20:41,657 The first legacy character, right. The first legacy. 391 00:20:41,824 --> 00:20:45,494 But that led us to go to the next step and create our own character 392 00:20:45,661 --> 00:20:50,161 who has now become phenomenally popular as a hero. 393 00:20:52,501 --> 00:20:55,086 Uh, everywhere I go, I see people in Nightwing shirts. 394 00:20:55,504 --> 00:20:57,005 And I think costumes, oh, gosh... 395 00:20:57,173 --> 00:20:58,924 Some of them may not even know who Nightwing is, 396 00:20:59,091 --> 00:21:00,675 but they're wearing the shirt 397 00:21:00,843 --> 00:21:02,594 -because it's a cool shirt. - Mmm-hmm. 398 00:21:03,304 --> 00:21:06,807 I remember with everything else... With all the fans that keep coming to us, 399 00:21:08,809 --> 00:21:10,852 um, that for quite a while, 400 00:21:11,020 --> 00:21:14,064 I think The <i>Titans</i> was the longest run lever had in any book. Uh... 401 00:21:15,399 --> 00:21:19,899 To have the term Wolf man-Pérez, has become a brand. 402 00:21:22,072 --> 00:21:24,324 How do we live up to that, particularly since 403 00:21:24,492 --> 00:21:28,120 Wolf man-Pérez haven't been Wolf man-Pérez for a number of decades now, really, 404 00:21:28,287 --> 00:21:30,539 on any kind of regular basis. 405 00:21:30,706 --> 00:21:33,250 Um, but it's something I take great pride in 406 00:21:33,417 --> 00:21:36,920 'cause the Titans are defined as the Wolf man-Pérez era. 407 00:21:37,171 --> 00:21:41,300 Collectively, the Wolf man-Perez team created the new Teen Titans. 408 00:21:41,467 --> 00:21:44,887 It was a unique combination and made The Titans what it was today. 409 00:21:45,054 --> 00:21:47,181 If I wasn't there, it would have been a different book. 410 00:21:47,348 --> 00:21:50,392 If Marv wasn't there, there probably wouldn't have been a <i>Titans</i> book. 411 00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:53,979 Together we created something that was unique because it was 412 00:21:54,146 --> 00:21:57,983 such a wonderful melding of two artistic visions, 413 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:01,570 all serving the same purpose, of telling a really good story 414 00:22:01,737 --> 00:22:04,573 with characters that we hope the audience would find interesting. 415 00:22:04,949 --> 00:22:09,449 I know that when I was growing up, 416 00:22:10,037 --> 00:22:14,332 it was Lee and Kirby or Lee and Ditko, 417 00:22:14,750 --> 00:22:19,250 and fans come to me all the time and they talk about Wolf man-Pérez, 418 00:22:21,257 --> 00:22:25,261 and it means the same to them, and I'm always shocked. 419 00:22:25,427 --> 00:22:28,471 I think it's wonderful that people still can love the material 420 00:22:28,639 --> 00:22:32,017 and they understand that when the two of us come together 421 00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:34,477 it's gonna be as good as we can make it. 422 00:22:34,645 --> 00:22:37,773 We're not gonna be rushing through anything. 423 00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:41,109 We're really gonna push each other to do a great job. 424 00:22:42,945 --> 00:22:46,615 And because we're in sync, the material is gonna work somehow. 425 00:22:47,199 --> 00:22:51,036 You bring your life story to the pages, I bring mine, 426 00:22:51,203 --> 00:22:52,746 and then somehow we work them out. 427 00:22:52,913 --> 00:22:57,413 And I think all good partnerships, uh, honor that rather than resist it. 428 00:22:58,961 --> 00:22:59,962 - Mmm-hmm. - Um... 429 00:23:00,129 --> 00:23:04,629 And I think, that's why the Titans can work on cartoons, frankly, 430 00:23:04,884 --> 00:23:07,386 uh, because we put it into the characters. 431 00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:11,139 Well, I think it's like the two parents. 432 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,019 Letting their children alone and watching them have lives of their own. 433 00:23:15,185 --> 00:23:19,189 The fact that I got... I did not find out about the animated cartoons 434 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:23,401 until Paul Levitz, publisher at DC at that time, called me up 435 00:23:23,569 --> 00:23:26,196 and told me about it, that there was going to be a <i>Titans</i> cartoon. 436 00:23:26,363 --> 00:23:29,324 'Cause at this point, my children are off on their own, 437 00:23:29,491 --> 00:23:32,744 whatever they do, it's their lives. 438 00:23:32,912 --> 00:23:34,246 And the fact that they send money home 439 00:23:34,413 --> 00:23:35,956 -to their daddy... -(BOTH LAUGHING) 440 00:23:36,248 --> 00:23:39,125 Or co-daddy, is very nice of them. 441 00:23:40,127 --> 00:23:42,879 - Titans have two daddies. - Oh, yes, that right. 442 00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:45,174 My two dads. Um... 443 00:23:45,341 --> 00:23:49,841 But it's like I still have such incredibly fond memories of... 444 00:23:51,597 --> 00:23:54,016 It feels like, "My God, were we that young?" 445 00:23:54,350 --> 00:23:57,394 - This is going to be very mushy so... - Oh, I know, yes. 446 00:23:57,561 --> 00:24:00,981 But just the idea of getting together 447 00:24:01,148 --> 00:24:02,732 -like two fan boys. - Yeah. 448 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:06,570 And just coming up with stories because it was fun. 449 00:24:06,737 --> 00:24:11,237 Sometimes I think the industry, it happens with so many industries, 450 00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:14,286 are forgetting what it was like to create, 451 00:24:14,453 --> 00:24:18,953 not to manufacture, but to create, and letting the children play. 452 00:24:19,124 --> 00:24:23,253 In the case of Cyborg, Raven, Starfire, 453 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:26,381 those characters never existed until Marv came up with the idea 454 00:24:26,548 --> 00:24:28,424 and I came up with the visual. 455 00:24:28,592 --> 00:24:33,092 There were no preconceptions. We were the founding fathers of those characters. 456 00:24:34,473 --> 00:24:37,267 I am so incredibly grateful 457 00:24:37,434 --> 00:24:40,895 that even if you and I didn't work together again, 458 00:24:41,063 --> 00:24:45,563 that our friendship has been so strong after all these years and... 459 00:24:47,111 --> 00:24:50,489 - To me, that... - Oh, yeah, no, that's the real benefit. 460 00:24:50,656 --> 00:24:52,282 That's the real good thing. 461 00:24:52,449 --> 00:24:54,242 The working together would be nice, 462 00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:57,496 I would, you know, sell somebody's right arm, 463 00:24:57,663 --> 00:24:59,289 not mine, 'cause I have to type with it. 464 00:24:59,456 --> 00:25:03,084 But I'd sell somebody's right arm to work with you again. (LAUGHS) 465 00:25:04,962 --> 00:25:06,880 Um, and yeah, one of these days, I hope. 466 00:25:07,047 --> 00:25:09,799 We're still young enough. 467 00:25:09,967 --> 00:25:14,467 Oh, yeah, I guess... It's common knowledge that I've had issues with my eyesight. 468 00:25:15,222 --> 00:25:17,349 Uh, but I can still... 469 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:21,895 I think I can still do nice storytelling, that's instinctive. 470 00:25:22,062 --> 00:25:26,399 Marv not only complimented me on the story elements I kept adding, 471 00:25:26,567 --> 00:25:29,736 sometimes he was suggesting dialog. He encouraged me, 472 00:25:29,903 --> 00:25:33,281 and he said that you really should try your hand at writing. 473 00:25:34,867 --> 00:25:37,578 And I never would be the writer that Marv Wolf man is, 474 00:25:37,745 --> 00:25:40,164 but he made me a much better writer than I ever thought I could be. 475 00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:43,624 Again, I miss you, Marv. (STAMMERING) 476 00:25:44,918 --> 00:25:49,418 And I have... I know you and I have talked about it and we'll see what happens. 477 00:25:50,090 --> 00:25:54,552 Hopefully someday in the future we may be doing, you know, 478 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,471 conventions together and just talking about 479 00:25:56,638 --> 00:25:58,264 the latest project that we're working on together. 480 00:25:58,432 --> 00:26:02,894 It will be nice that the Wolf man-Pérez doesn't become just a historical footnote, 481 00:26:03,062 --> 00:26:04,480 that we're just not Lewis and Clark, 482 00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:07,357 we're not, uh, all these other words that are just part of history. 483 00:26:07,524 --> 00:26:11,402 That we are a vital contributing part of the comic community. 484 00:26:11,570 --> 00:26:13,280 But you know, when we did <i>Games,</i> 485 00:26:13,489 --> 00:26:15,991 just a couple of years ago, we finished off the <i>Games</i> book, 486 00:26:16,158 --> 00:26:18,618 I remember having lunch with you, 487 00:26:18,786 --> 00:26:20,996 -and Mike Perkins was thanking you. - Yes, our anchor. 488 00:26:21,163 --> 00:26:25,663 And he said that for a brief time, because of the way we just talk to each other 489 00:26:26,376 --> 00:26:29,670 and come up with ideas and fling things back and forth, 490 00:26:29,838 --> 00:26:33,591 he felt that he was back when he was a fan, 491 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:36,970 watching it happen 'cause that doesn't escape. 492 00:26:37,137 --> 00:26:40,515 The electricity of the two of us works. 493 00:26:40,682 --> 00:26:42,266 And I hope we get a chance to do it again. 494 00:26:42,434 --> 00:26:43,601 (STAMMERS) 495 00:26:43,769 --> 00:26:45,645 Here's hoping. Here's hoping. 496 00:26:45,813 --> 00:26:47,189 - Yes. -(BOTH CHUCKLING) |
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